Datica Podcast

February 18, 2020

Working in Healthcare: Geeta Nayyar

In this episode of 4x4 Health, we kick off our new series Working in Healthcare with series co-host Geeta Nayyar, M.D., M.B.A. Chief Medical Officer for Greenway Health. Geeta is a nationally recognized leader in healthcare information technology. She has been named one of the “Top 26 smartest people in Health IT” by Becker’s Report and ranked one of the “Top 25 Minority Healthcare Executives” by Modern Healthcare.


Transcript

Dr. Dave Levin: Welcome to 4 x 4 Health sponsored by Datica. Datica, bringing healthcare to the cloud. Check them out at www.datica.com. I'm your host, Dr. Dave Levin. Healthcare is both one of the largest sectors of the U S economy and one of the most intensely personal aspects of our lives. But few of us have insight into what it's like behind the scenes, who are the people that make healthcare tick? What do they do? And why, what observations and advice do these insiders have to share in this special 4 x 4 Health series working in healthcare, Dr. Geeta Nayyar and I talk with doctors, nurses, administrators, IT professionals, and others to get insights into their personal journey and the wisdom they've acquired along the way. I'm really excited to be kicking off this new series and Geeta and I felt like it was only fair that we go first. In this inaugural episode, we'll be interviewing each other.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Well, Dave, thanks so much for tapping me as your partner in crime. I couldn't pick a better partner. So thank you for that.

Dr. Dave Levin: So Geeta, the first question is really to kind of get to the bottom of who you are and the kind of work you're doing. So tell us a little bit about yourself and your organization.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Sure. So I am the chief medical officer for Greenway health. So we are primarily an ambulatory EHR company. Any of the work I'm doing is just awesome, Dave. We're trying to build new products, we're trying to fix legacy products and more than anything, we really want to be the leader in ambulatory healthcare. And as a physician, as an outpatient rheumatologist, this is what jazzes me up every morning, other than my little seven-year-old, that is more like a rocket in the morning and I don't know about jazz, but we have some fun. So I think particularly as a mom who is out there at the pediatrician and has to go to visits and I appreciate the healthcare hassles that we, as I think moms of every household have to deal with. So I love building technologies for patients just like me and moms just like me.

Dr. Dave Levin: That's really great. And, it doesn't really do you justice though, cause I know you're really into your work at Greenway right now, but you've had a really interesting career. Tell us about a couple of the other seats that you've sat in over the years.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Sure. I think I’ve had the privilege to have a couple of interesting roles. So previously probably one of my most exhilarating roles was as the chief medical information officer for AT&T. So the first CMIO and I was in my early thirties is still pretty young. We did a lot with mobile medicine, telemedicine, remote patient monitoring. So it was very new age and it was one of these companies. It was a non-healthcare company trying to get into healthcare. And as you see some of the folks now, Apple, Amazon, Google, it's interesting. Some of the tours or some of the lessons learned that I got from that experience, but I just continue to what excited me about the role with the potential, right? You have this huge fortune 20 company that had so much opportunity. But you know, again, healthcare is complicated. It's really complicated, and you know, it's great to hire a doctor and, and to bring the expertise on, but it just requires so much investment. And it'll be really interesting to see what happens next in healthcare with some of these nontraditional folks entering the market.

Dr. Dave Levin: Yeah. Boy, healthcare is really hard, and I know it's a trope to say it's different, but there are some things about it they're kind of unique. And I think you like me are really interested in the intersection, this kind of mashup between the old and the new and what new players can bring. But also the wisdom of experience from the past.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Definitely, definitely. Well, I think more than anything, it's doing it from the inside out, right. It's people like you, it's people like me. Its people like so many of our colleagues that, we get it. Like, I actually have patients today. I have rheumatology clinic today and it's our EHR, I won't need naming, it is horrible. I actually texted last clinic. I texted our CTO and our CIO. Like 10:00 PM and I'm like, just so you guys know I'm in my PJ's and I'm still working on my notes, so we better fix this. So I think it's really that front lines of care meets the all of the other things that's around care and just, how do you bring it all together to actually make an impact and improve healthcare?

Dr. Dave Levin: Yeah. I'll tell you, when I hear the stories about people in their PJ's still doing notes. It strikes really deeply to me. I think this has been a negative impact of this first generation of technology, and it's clear it's having an impact on the workforce. And it's one of the challenges we've got to fix as we go forward. 

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Absolutely. So, Dave, I first met you, oh my gosh It feels like eons ago. Met you at the Cleveland clinic and when I was with, AT&T many moons ago, many moons ago, and I quickly, I think you and I quickly, I was like, oh my gosh, this guy would be an amazing mentor. And he's had a similar path than me, but so much more experience. So I'd love for our audience to know about you and how you got to this place. And what are you doing with the podcast? Like how all this came together?

Dr. Dave Levin: Yeah. Well, it's kind of a crazy story. And eons is right. When I realized I'm now in my fourth decade of working in healthcare. Well, it opens my eyes. That's all I can say. I often refer to myself as the Forrest Gump of health care and it's set a little bit tongue in cheek, but it's also kind of sincere. I feel like most of my career I have wandered around and just wandered into the frame and was fortunate to meet really terrific people working on interesting problems. And I just feel so fortunate. And the other thing is I’ve been really fortunate to have lots of help and lots of mentoring and a real sense of the need to pay that forward as well.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: So I love it. I love it. Run Dave run.

Dr. Dave Levin: Let me be really specific. 

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Where did it start?

Dr. Dave Levin: Well it really started with an article in popular science. And I want to say the year was around 1974. It's the same article that bill Gates and others read, and it just lit the imagination about personal computing. And I was very young. I was in my early teens then, but just was set on fire with the idea of computing and particularly personal computing. And really my first career was in information technology. It was really later that it began to dawn on me that this could play a major role in better healthcare. I couldn't articulate that very clearly at the time, but I could see that those two trends were going to combine at some point. Now it's almost, 40 years later and we're finally on that journey. We're early on the path, but we are finally on that journey. If there's any way to make sense of my career it's really been a search for a bigger and bigger lever to move healthcare forward. So I’ve practiced in clinical settings. I've taught, I became a full-time physician executive in January of 2000. And I’ve served in a health plan as a medical director. I've been a VP of a hospital, oversaw a major rollout of an EHR. And then as you mentioned, ended up at Cleveland clinic as their first chief medical information officer. And that was a springboard into the world of entrepreneurship, startups and venture capital. And, really that's been the focus of my work, the last five or six years, including the startup that's now Datica that's focused on really helping other companies move into the public cloud for healthcare, by providing data integration and security and compliance services. And I also spend a fair amount of time as an active venture capitalist, both investing, working with other funds in doing due diligence and in supporting portfolio companies. So it's a crazy mishmash, it's been as my dad used to say quite an erratic career, I'd prefer to think of it as eclectic. And as I said at the beginning, I feel so fortunate and so blessed.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Amazing, amazing, well, you're definitely a runner. I see that, and look, there's so much to do. There's nothing you've left on the table and now you have a podcast, so, now it's all complete.

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, you asked about the podcast and of course you've been a great guest and helped us with that. And that too has just been so fascinating in terms of people's interest and willingness to tell their stories and it's just another way to leverage a new technology hopefully for the benefit of healthcare. It's also been a lot of fun as I like to say, it's my podcast and I can do what I want.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Just like Cindy Lauper would be saying. So why healthcare though? Because you mentioned personal computing is actually what kind of, what lit your fire, so how did you end up in healthcare?

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, this is a Forrest Gump story. And so I was really into IT. And wasn't sure what I was going to do with that. Again, I was a teenager and thinking about college and beyond that. I had a brother who was training to be a pediatrician and had a lot of admiration for him. And so that got me thinking more and more about health care, but he Forrest Gump part of the story is when I applied to college, that the college I applied to had a combined medical education program, basically undergraduate and medical school. And in theory, you could complete the whole thing in seven years, it literally was checking a box on the college application and the amount of thought I put it into it was, well, I might want to go to medical school someday. I'll check this box. And lo and behold, I was admitted to the program, truly a Forrest Gump moment for me when I look back on it. And it turned out to be a great opportunity for me because it allowed me to pursue a lot of different interests as an undergrad and not be obsessed with getting an A in organic chemistry, frankly, I'm not sure I could have gotten an A in organic chemistry. So, that's how I ended up in healthcare. And as I said, the theme has really been initially caring for patients one by one, but I got increasingly interested in the systems of care and things that I could do as an administrator and an operator and innovator that would allow others to deliver even better healthcare and do so more efficiently and with greater satisfaction.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: That is so neat Dave, I didn't know that about you because I was in the six-year med program at University of Miami.

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, there you go. 

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: I didn't know you were at Brown.

Dr. Dave Levin: As always, you were smarter than me. You went someplace warm. I was at Brown and froze my butt off for many, many years.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Full disclosure. Brown was my A school. My number one school, I did not get into Brown. 

Dr. Dave Levin: Again being older than you, I got in when it was a little bit easier.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: We'll go with that.

Dr. Dave Levin: Yeah, exactly. But just to dwell on this a little bit, it was a perfect place for me. I actually left school twice to do startups and were very accommodating and supportive of that. I've always thought I was their problem child, that they kind of accommodated. But it was the perfect opportunity for someone like me and clearly an inflection point at my career. 

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Very neat. Thanks for sharing. 

Dr. Dave Levin: So what about you? I mean, you're this talented, vivacious person could do almost anything you put your mind to. Why did you pick healthcare?

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Dave, I wish my story was as sort of the universe calling me, but it was really different. I grew up in a family of everyone is a doctor. My mom is a doctor. My dad is a doctor. My family is from India, South Asia. You can only be two things. You got to be a doctor. You got to be an engineer, no other. There's really no other career path. And as a tiger mom, I'm very open minded. I tell my daughter, listen, you can be any kind of doctor you want to be. I'm very open, very open. Whatever specialty you want to do. We're very open-minded family. So, it's just a big part of what I saw, what I was exposed to. And then I am just a science nerd. It's funny because I was just having meeting with our product team and they asked me like, what's just the best, what's the best technology out there. Like, what is it that you think is just the most awesome piece of healthcare technology? And I said, you're not going to like my answer guys, cause there's no way to make this thing. And they're like, no, no, no. Tell us. And I was like, the human body. I mean, the human body to me, it's just awesome. Like I just love science, everything about anatomy, pathophysiology. So I am just a big science geek and then I'm very personable. I like to talk to people. I'm not a lab rat and not anyone who would ever survive a PhD program. So medicine kind of makes sense. I have this opportunity to six-year med program. I appreciated that there were sort of other things I wanted to do. And it's it for me, cause I could sort of get in medical school quickly and was able to do an MBA later in my career. I actually did during my fellowship. I'd like to pick up two degrees at once. Take your beeper. If it goes off, you better answer. And so, I worked it out with my professors, and I said you know, I walked out, please don't think that I'm not being rude. And what caused me to do that was just, once I got to the end of my training, I was like, I am the top dog, I'm the dog. I get to decide who's being admitted, discharged as you and I both know that was not the case. Hospital administrators that hated me because I would fight for my patients. The emergency room hated me. I'd be like, Oh, I think they have chest pain, they're going to have to stay. Because those were the ways we worked around to try to do the things that were right for our patients. And unfortunately that's what it took. And what I realized is that as the doctor, being savvy about the system was actually in some cases more critical than being savvy about the medicine. Because that was the only way I was going to be able to serve my patients and health IT is something I fell into because at the time that I was at GW, we were rolling out Allscripts actually was our first EHR. And I just looked at that thing. And I was like, man, this could change the whole game. I was through business school. I was becoming a doctor and I was just like communication and data and analytics and all the things that we're trying to do today. But I remember just knocking on the CIO's office and being like, listen, I get what you're trying to do. But you're doing this all backwards. I was getting bold in my twenties. 

Dr. Dave Levin: I was going to say that side, boy, I’ll give you props for that.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: And to his credit, when I told him, I think I can help you. You guys just, you don't get what we're trying to do, in an average day and how it looks for a doc and what we need to accomplish with patients and to his credit, he just looked at me and said, come on in doc, here's a seat for you. And if you'll help us, we'll take it. And I really never looked back after that. And I think it was something you said earlier about the, there was an impact one-on-one. But what I saw with Tech was that I could scale this and if I could build this for every practice and every patient, man, what an awesome career, what an awesome way to make an impact, which I think is what drives you, me, people like us.

Dr. Dave Levin: Now, your specialty is?

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Rheumatology. And that's actually a really personal story for me too. So I have a very close family member that had an extraordinarily rare disease that was actually misdiagnosed for most of her life. And it was until, and then I became a rheumatologist and literally around 30 diagnosed her correctly. Like I put the whole story again, it was a big part of my health tech journey too, because a big part, it was her records. She'd seen all these specialists, and no one had really put this story together. And also, I’ve the knowledge of rare diseases to say, “Hey, pulmonary saw this and room saw this and cardio saw this.” And I actually saved her life, actually saved her life. She’s still knock on wood rocking and rolling today, but it really took that. It really took this journey of even as a doctor being very humble that this was not the diagnosis for so many years and our whole life as a family, there was always something burning. And I was, I would always ask the doctors questions, and no one would give me a good answer, but who was I? I was like a little kid. So then to sort of grow up and be able to say, Hey, I got this bank of knowledge. And I think this is what's going on. And again, the savviness about the system being able to get the biopsy, work the records, work the insurance companies to take care of all of this. It was extraordinary. It's really been amazing for our family.

Dr. Dave Levin: Boy, there's so much in there. I wish we had a two-hour podcast, but I’ll just simply note that there's two themes in your career choice and path that I’ve heard frequently. So one is the, I had family members who were in health care and that influenced my interest in healthcare. And the other is, some sort of healthcare related event. Many times you'll hear the story of something happened to a member of my family and it was an extraordinary experience and it made me want to go into healthcare. So I just find that interesting. Your story kind of incorporates both of those elements.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Yeah. I think that our area, I think healthcare for the most part is mission driven to an extent. And definitely passion obviously when it comes from the heart, that just doesn't stop you. I have a question for you. So when I think about your path, so you went to Brown, you had this amazing, it's interesting to me that you actually started to do startups stuff way back when, and you're basically kind of back to where you started. It's interesting, how we can't escape ourselves. But what does a day in the life look like for Dr. Dave Levin? Your wife must be like a Saint or something. It sounds like too.

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, my wife is a Saint for many reasons. Including the support that she showed me during my career. The answer to that question has changed over time quite a bit. The other thing I got to say is, my wife and I were having dinner with some friends, not too long ago and we got on this subject and they said, “well, how many companies have you started Dave?” And I said, “I think it's five.” And my wife looked at me and said, “no, it's been six.” So as you said, I guess we're, I guess I have returned to my roots. A day in the life has been very different over time. I mean, in my early career, I was practicing full time medicine and it was, like a typical doc and, I had young children and a wife with a career and all of that. Pretty quickly I got into outpatient care only. So I didn't have to do night call and weekends, because my wife was a practicing OB GYN. I did that for about 10 years. When I moved into an administrative role, for about 12 years, I worked for Centura health care and it was a corporate job. Now I wouldn't say it was nine to five, because in the medical world, we usually start at 7.00 AM. But it was typically a 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM and a lot of time in meetings and that sort of thing. And that continued when I was recruited to Cleveland clinic. The last five years have been very different, because I'm an entrepreneur, I'm in a startup. I work from home. And so on my best days, I'd say I commute to the back porch, which is wonderful for me. I travel for work. Our corporate headquarters is in Minneapolis. And the day is a mix of be working quietly on my own, do a lot of video conferencing and tending in person meetings. And that sort of thing. What I love about this phase of my life is time is more valuable to me than money. I can be choosier about what I do, what I say yes to what I say no to. And it's also allowed me to have a different, and I would argue better work life balance, which is always a work in progress. Not that you, you similarly, you've got these different hats that you wear. Is there even a typical day for Geeta?

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Oh gosh. I would say that there is, it's interesting because I'm in a different stage of life. So I read this question with, I have a seven-year-old, so my day starts at six, getting her ready, going to school. For me, it's interesting. So today it's actually, it would be the most typical day for me. So last week I was at a customer site visit, this morning with a conference call, video call. I work from home like you. So I live and work in Miami. And so no complaints at this time of year, December is beautiful in Miami. So I was on the phone with the design team. We're working on mockups from the customer site visit working on the product, which again is really a passion of mine. So that's how I spent my morning right after I dropped off my daughter. And then I actually have clinic today. So my day will end early. So I do a half day of sort of my corporate time. And then the rest of the day today, I’ll be seeing patients that you university of Miami, I do the rheumatology clinic there, which I do pro bono. And one of the hardest parts of my day to day will be the EHR. Unfortunately, I'm already trying to plan my commute to and from the clinic cause I have to stay there a little later to finish rather than coming home to do them. And it is a different stage of life. So a big part of it for me is I love that I can do this blend of doing the health tech stuff and still keeping my clinical head-on, I'm trying really hard to maintain my clinical skills for as long as I can, but I'm also very much looking for the work life balance with my daughter and being able to have the flexibility to pick her up from school, drop her to school. And it's constantly juggling, but I think I thrive on that. I think that that's actually a typical day for me in the sense that I appreciate the diversity of all of that is what does excite me. Sonya frequently makes fun of my wardrobe because I’ll be dressed in a suit from like waist to collarbone. And then she'll be like, mommy, like you're wearing shorts. And they see me on video. And so she sort of like laughed at me that she says, I'm faking it. She's like, you look like you're a businessperson, but you're just in shorts.

Dr. Dave Levin: The beauty of video conferencing from home. So there's again a lot in there, but two very common themes that I hear are the physicians who are doing something besides practicing, how do you maintaining the integrity of their practice and being there for their patients and keeping their skills up while they balance that with, what's often a completely different aspect of their career. And then all of that is imbalanced with the rest of their life or at least the effort to keep an imbalance. Tell us just a little bit more about those two aspects of this.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Sure. It's really difficult. So I try to make it a point. So I went to the American college of rheumatology this year, so I'm a rheumatologist. So I do ACR one year to get all my CME for rheumatology and stay up to date and then I’ll do ACP next year for internal medicine. So I kind of do this dance where I do an annual CME and I think it takes, it really takes, I want to say a village and having the right relationships. So, the University of Miami has been very supportive. I also see patients at Florida International University. So I kind of, I try to get as many clinics as I can essentially. And the universities are the best place because of your malpractice. They cover the malpractice. No private practice is going to let you do this. And then of course I have to thank Greenway for being supportive of it and they feel that, it'll be part of my value in bringing that perspective and building a product is being able to say, look, I still see patients. And I deal with this firsthand. This is a pain point for me, is how to get done on time, how to be efficient, how to maintain eye contact when I'm interviewing a patient and follow up and all the things that we all deal with. I thought it was interesting that when you were talking about your early career, that you said you ended at five and that was, if you practice today, I’ll guarantee you, you don't end up five, cause there's so much more administrative burden and this is the whole issue of physician burnout.

Dr. Dave Levin: Yeah. And I'm glad she went there cause, this theme of, and I don't like the word burnout, by the way, I'm an advocate for us talking about this in terms of resiliency. I prefer to frame it as a positive, that's my little bugaboo. But to your point about the impact on resiliency, but there's another piece to this. I suspect you like me. Although the schedule can be heavy and complex and sometimes the days are stressful. The variety of the work, the chance to interact with cutting edge intellects that are engaged and passionate about what they're doing. I find all of that to be very rejuvenating and part of resiliency for me about the time I'm sick of working on something, whatever it is, I can just flip to something completely different that will, and I’ve got a short attention span, I’ll own that, but I suspect that you have found that to be true as well. That from that part of the formula for resiliency includes diversity of activity for folks like you and me, that's not true for everyone, but certainly true for some of us.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: That's right. I think the other thing I’ve really enjoyed is working with doctors and training, just working with the medical students, the residents. They keep you on your toes. And it's also just so neat to see what the next generation of medicine is going to look like. So I love it and I desperately holding on for as long as I can Dave. So we'll see what happens.

Dr. Dave Levin: It's funny you say that. When I look back on my relatively brief academic career and I do consider myself an academic in recovery, that's the part I missed the most was working with the medical students and the residents. And I find I get some of that in my career now, when I work with young entrepreneurs or young engineers or others working within startup companies and like you, I find, it keeps me young. It keeps me connected to emerging trends. It makes you step back and revisit fundamental questions and assumptions. And a lot of times it turns out, yes, it's still true, but it's good to be challenged that way.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Definitely. Definitely. It also makes you feel old. It makes you feel young and then it makes you feel old. 

Dr. Dave Levin: Yeah. So I just sort of embraced that part. I know I'm slower than they are, but hopefully I'm a little more wily than I used to be. So let's bring this home now. And I'm curious, what's the one thing you think everyone should know about health or about healthcare and you can take this anywhere you want.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: So, if I would say the one thing, and this is going to sound really lame probably to you, but just real concrete. If I think about Dr. Mom and I think about a pediatric visit, don't say you're allergic to penicillin unless you are. Like, just don't do it. Like if your kid got a stomachache or someone said that once upon a time, your ear itchy after taking penicillin just don't do it. I think people feel like they're allergic to everything. And the thing is penicillin still with all the technology and all the amazing innovation we have in healthcare, penicillin is freaking awesome antibiotics. And when you take it off the table, because you say you're allergic to it or something else, sulfur, whatever it might be, you are taking a really good treatment off the table. And believe me, if you are allergic and you stop breathing, your tongue swells out, we need to know we need to not give that to you. But for whatever reason, rheumatology people come in with this list of allergies that I find out are like myths. And I like go through it sometimes. And I'm like, when you say you were allergic to this, what happened? And then like my mom said, when I was three years old, literally last week, my ear started itching. And I'm like, maybe you got bit by a mosquito. I think people need to know that that takes off good treatments that your doctor might recommend. So don't say you're allergic unless you really are. It can really affect your treatment options.

Dr. Dave Levin: Very good, good general advice and true I think for any drug allergy or food allergy or otherwise. There's real ones and we've got to take those seriously, but boy, there's also a lot of noise around that. 

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Definitely. What about you, Dave? I feel like yours is going to be so different. It's going to be, how to invest your money in a startup? 

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, you gave a very specific concrete one and a great one. I'm actually going to go the other way and be very, very general. And this is my one thing you should know about healthcare. And I would argue for life in general, which is, and it was one of my father's favorite things to preach, which was moderation, all things in moderation. And if you want to complicate it, even moderation should be done in moderation.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: I love it. I'm going to clap for that one. That was so much better than the Penicillin. 

Dr. Dave Levin: So what do I mean by that? I think my experience has been most things in life are either as good or as bad as you think they are. And although there are some parts of my life, like my indulgence in music where too much is never enough, for most of life too much is too much. And so moderation is the best course and it can be really practical. So let's talk about like basic healthy living. So one week we're supposed to eat bacon and the next week we're told bacon is evil. And I always think of that.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Bacon is evil though. 

Dr. Dave Levin: So, the answer for me in terms of diet and exercise, and these other things are, practice moderation. So I like bacon, but I'm going to have it once a month, not once a week or every day. And I think in general again, if you approach life that way, things tend to go better. You tend to be more successful. Now, let me talk out the other side of my mouth, because I did say even moderation should be in moderation. And there are times when being extreme is both pleasurable and good and effective, but that should be done at great moderation and thoughtfully and not without great care. So that's my general advice for life. I got that from my dad. I find it applies both to my health, to making choices on healthcare and to leading life in general. So that's my one thing everyone should know.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Dave, you should be a doctor, that was beautiful. I'm going to use that today. I'm going to use that in clinic today. Next time somebody asks me about anything, I am just going to say, great man, Dr. Dave Levin, who says moderation. You're so right. And we all know that, but we need to be reminded of it. And it's obviously so much harder to practice it, but you're spot on. Thank you for that.

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, it's an aspiration. Isn't it?

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Next time I'm eating bacon, I'm going to send you a picture or text you a picture, I am like Dave, is this the time of the month that you get to eat bacon?

Dr. Dave Levin: And I’ll be asking you back. Is this in moderation or is this, Are you being moderate about your moderation? I don't know.

Dr. Geeta Nayyar: Fair enough. Fair enough. This was so much fun, Dave. Thank you so much.

Dr. Dave Levin: Well, thank you, Geeta. And I want to thank you again for joining me on this series. I'm really looking forward to it. We've got some terrific and interesting guests that we'll be following on and thank you for opening your heart and your mind to us today. And for what I know is going to follow. You've been listening to 4 x 4 Health sponsored by Datica. Datica, bringing healthcare to the cloud. Check them out at www.datica.com. I hope you'll join us next time for another 4 x 4 discussion with healthcare innovators. Until then I'm your host, Dr. Dave Levin. Thanks for listening.